Herbert Ong on Elon Musk’s AI Future: Tesla’s Path to Utopia or Chaos?

After listening to him for many years, I'm honored to have Herbert Ong of  ⁨@BrighterwithHerbert⁩ on the show!

Other than being a T$LA investor, he has also founded 3 companies, awarded the Thomson Reuters Healthcare Star Performance Excellence Award in 2007, and was the Head Product Manager who built and launched CareDiscovery (used by the majority of US hospitals).

Watch the incredible episode on Youtube

EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS
[00:00-07:14] Why Tesla? The S-Curve of Innovation
[07:15-08:11] Diversifying Beyond Tesla
[08:12-12:00] Growth vs. Value Investing
[12:01-6:02] The Data Edge: Tesla’s  Advantage
[16:01-20:00] Robotaxis: The Economic Case
[20:01-23:36] Optimus: The Next Layer of AI
[23:37-27:54] Real-World Data: The Key to AGI
[27:55-32:03] Glipse of the Age of Abundance
[32:04-38:09] Solar farms? Global Energy Shifts
[38:10-44:45] Utopia or Dystopia? The AI Future
[44:46-48:00] Should we be afraid?
[48:01-51:47] A Holodeck Future

Special Mentions:
Elon Musk, Tesla AI, EVs, robotaxi, Optimus, Waymo, Apple
Tony Seba, Ray Kurzweil, Gary Black, AIM Free
Book: The Singularity is Near, predicting AGI by 2029.

***

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Chapters

• 0:00 Why Tesla? The S-Curve of Innovation
• 0:00 32:04
• 7:15 Diversifying Beyond Tesla
• 8:12 Growth vs. Value Investing
• 12:01 The Data Edge: Tesla’s Advantage
• 16:03 Robotaxis: The Economic Case
• 20:01 Optimus: The Next Layer of AI
• 23:37 Real-World Data: The Key to AGI
• 27:55 Glipse of the Age of Abundance
• 38:10 Utopia or Dystopia? The AI Future
• 44:46 Should we be afraid?
• 48:01 Holodeck Future

Transcript

[00:00:00] Herbert Ong: Do you believe what Elon says or you don't? And guess what? He's almost always right. Most people like Jensen Wong believes what he says, uh, what he's saying now, the race to AI is every single company. They're all basically leapfrogging each other. They're basically there. The reason is [00:00:15] because they've all used the same data.

[00:00:17] The data that's available is, 

[00:00:19] Axel Meierhoefer: is imaginable, right? Where energy and labor are free. They help us heard about, see this, but maybe also when, when do you think we are getting close to that? 

[00:00:27] Herbert Ong: Wow. Okay. I think, uh.[00:00:30] 

[00:00:33] Axel Meierhoefer: All right. Hello and welcome to another episode of The Ideal Investor Show, and another one today where I'm very, very honored to have somebody, uh, just told him I've been following him for a very long time. Herbert Long, [00:00:45] welcome to the Ideal Investor Show. 

[00:00:47] Herbert Ong: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Axel. Appreciate being invited.

[00:00:49] This is great. Looking forward to it. 

[00:00:51] Axel Meierhoefer: Yeah, I'm, I'm really honored. I mean it, um, so. Before we start talking a little bit about investing and, and some of the [00:01:00] things that are coming in technology. Tell the audience a little bit about yourself. I, one thing I, I, for example, wanna know as a German guy, how did your, how did your parents decide to, to call you Herbert?[00:01:15] 

[00:01:15] Herbert Ong: You know, I don't know. Uh, I just learned recently that Herbert is the set number two name of people who, who are dying right now. 'cause it's so old. Oh, really? Uhhuh. Number one is Elmer, which is my brother-in-law, by the way. Uh, he's German as well. And so, uh, [00:01:30] it's just, so I I, my joke is that every single day I become more special, so, you know.

[00:01:36] Yeah. I think it's Herb Alpert. He's a, he was a famous, uh, clarinet that my dad, clarinet player that my dad likes. So I think that that's the story. I don't know. [00:01:45] 

[00:01:45] Axel Meierhoefer: Yeah, absolutely. Well, that could be, you know, um. There's actually one guy, I don't know if you heard that, his name was Herbert Van on a very famous composer, so mm-hmm.

[00:01:56] You know, if there was a clarinet player in the game, so 

[00:01:59] Herbert Ong: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[00:01:59] Axel Meierhoefer: [00:02:00] Who knows? Okay, very cool. So, um, but tell us a little bit more about yourself. How did you end up being where you are today? 

[00:02:06] Herbert Ong: Sure. Absolutely. So, uh, I'm a, uh, startup, uh, entrepreneur. My background is on product management, where I enjoy creating, [00:02:15] uh, products and, uh, marketing and creating, you know, managing the business unit.

[00:02:19] I've created, I've, uh, ran three different startups. I've worked at very large companies, small companies, and it's about, you know, creating breakthrough products that, uh. People [00:02:30] love and one of my claim to fame is, uh, this software that I created, that 60% of all hospitals healthcare analytics are using it today.

[00:02:38] And IBM Watson Health bought that. So, you know, my focus has always been on technology and just [00:02:45] loving. Disruptive technology specifically. So I'm an early adopter for everything, early adopter, for Gmail, for Instagram, for any tool that comes out. I want to be the first to find out what it is, [00:03:00] what's it doing, why is it gonna succeed?

[00:03:01] I. And then the thing that really, um, drives me is people like Steve, jobs of Apple. I fell in love with that company very early on. I've invested heavily in Apple and just trying to learn everything I can [00:03:15] about how does he run his business and why is it so different than others? They're focused on product is so important and of course.

[00:03:23] Tesla comes along and, and is very similar in Apple. In some ways, breakthrough, disruptive thinks differently, [00:03:30] and then, and even better in many, many ways. And so I've now become, uh, a, a huge investor. In Tesla, it's well as well, but uh, that's sort of the what drives me, innovation and just people moving technology forward.

[00:03:42] So I think your, your podcast is [00:03:45] called The Age of Abundance, and I think that that is exactly like what drives me, that gets me very, very excited. Right. 

[00:03:51] Axel Meierhoefer: Yeah, exactly. And I mean, Tony basically really got, not with the latest book, but with the rethink stuff. Um, you [00:04:00] know, I, I love that one quote and I am sure you heard of it.

[00:04:04] I dunno if you mentioned it when you interviewed him, but this thing that, you know, if you transition from a caterpillar to a butterfly, it isn't enough to just put wings on the caterpillar. [00:04:15] That, those kind of things, you know, that stick with me. Um. Now before we get to this current stuff, was that an intention when you went to MIT to say, this is kind of my investor?

[00:04:28] How did that happen? 

[00:04:29] Herbert Ong: No, no, [00:04:30] no, no. MIT was just a, a, a three week program as part of the organiz, uh, companies like, uh, the company I was working for sponsored us so that we can run business units. But it's just the whole idea of, of being able to understand the tech. [00:04:45] Disruption that's happening, and then be able to apply that to what's, you know, what your day-to-day job is doing.

[00:04:50] So, yeah. 

[00:04:52] Axel Meierhoefer: Okay. Very cool. But I did a little bit of research and, and, uh, AI tool that I used actually claimed that, yeah, he went to MIT. Okay. [00:05:00] No, no, no. I have to ask him about that. Yeah. Alright, very cool. Now, I, I also read and maybe, um, you tell me if that's true or not, but that you started investing in Tesla in 2012.

[00:05:11] Is that correct? 

[00:05:12] Herbert Ong: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's one of those [00:05:15] things. So what happened there was, I, I grew up, or I live in Vancouver, Canada. I currently live in the US now. And at the time I was very interested in. The future of, uh, sustainable energy. There is a bus company called Ballard, uh, [00:05:30] based in Vancouver, Canada, and I invested in that.

[00:05:32] Uh, but unfortunately that company did not do well, so I lost my money there. Yeah. Uh, but by 2012 comes and I hear about Elon Musk and his, uh, efforts and I was very interested in what he was doing, [00:05:45] but, um, he announced. That he was going to invest, I think $98 million of his own money at that realm in 2012.

[00:05:53] And I thought, okay, well, you know, it's like, it's a very risky endeavor, but if he's willing to put in some money, I'll put in just a little bit. So I started [00:06:00] putting in money at that point. Uh, 2013, stock tripled. Uh, you're seeing the great products coming out. You know, the Model S comes out, everything's fantastic.

[00:06:10] He's got the, uh, the new factory and then of course it stays flat for [00:06:15] 6, 7, 6, 7, 8 years. So it's been, it is been frustrating, but that's exactly kind of like exciting to watch this company develop from nothing to this image, vision of what he had. And then here we are today, but, uh, yeah, I, I started [00:06:30] following him since that early.

[00:06:31] Axel Meierhoefer: Yeah. Well, it's kind of funny, like, you know, in my view. I didn't quite start that early. I got into 2020, so way later than you, but still compared to met a lot of people, um, quite a while ago [00:06:45] when I looked at some stuff, you know, and Tony always talks about scur. 

[00:06:49] Herbert Ong: Mm-hmm. But in 

[00:06:51] Axel Meierhoefer: a way, if you make it a little more edgy, it could almost be like a staircase.

[00:06:56] Right. So I, I have the impression with Tesla, it's more like a [00:07:00] staircase. You know, they have an s. Then they have to develop for a while, then they have another s then they have to develop for a nine, then they have another S. Um, I don't know if you agree with that, but before we get into more details about Tesla, I'm kind of curious.[00:07:15] 

[00:07:15] Our community, um, that I am providing the podcast and other stuff too original or, and still to this day, is mainly looking into, uh, real estate. But then from there to diversify. [00:07:30] Now, you said that you invested, you founded companies, you're invested in, in stock. Is there anything that you diversify into? 

[00:07:38] Herbert Ong: Oh yeah.

[00:07:38] And of course, so yeah, when somebody says they're all in on a stock, you gotta ask the question, what do you mean? [00:07:45] Of course you've got cash, of course you should have real estate. Of course you should have like, uh, investments that are not in stock. I think when somebody says they're all in, you should say, okay, the money that you've reserved for stock.

[00:07:58] Where do you invest [00:08:00] that? Right. And there's nothing wrong with, in fact, I'm totally supportive of people who wanna invest in different things. Um, and so, yeah, it's not, I don't, I don't support that people should be all in on one thing or not. It's just that, uh. You know, like we said, Tesla [00:08:15] is a unique company, right?

[00:08:17] Because it's in multiple industries and it's got a strong balance sheet fundamentals that in that sense it, the auto business is stagnant. So if you're looking at it for auto, you can say, yeah, it's not there. [00:08:30] But if you're looking at it based on technology, like you said, all these S-curves, and what's interesting is today, right now.

[00:08:37] Every of these s-curves are right, like they're all supporting each other and they're all available now. And we've been waiting all this time for to finally get to [00:08:45] this point where it's all ready to just go like this. Right. So one of the, uh, people that I've been following is, uh, you know, every, uh, you know, disruptive technology and that whole thing about, uh, just how s-curves will, uh, they, [00:09:00] they, uh, they, they complimentary, they converge, and then they complementary growth.

[00:09:04] That's the critical thing. Yeah. 

[00:09:06] Axel Meierhoefer: That's what I call the staircase. Right? And it's just a matter of how narrow are the stairs. Some are like really short one after the next. The others are further [00:09:15] drawn out. But I have that same impression. I think to some extent in the construct. Tesla has evolved over the years that I have been following it, and I followed it much longer than I've been a shareholder.

[00:09:28] Mm-hmm. In a way, [00:09:30] like the early, really, really successful stages of ge. Where GE had so many different things that they were doing. But I think one thing that they never really accomplished is exactly what you just said. That they really 

[00:09:42] Herbert Ong: complimentary. Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:44] Axel Meierhoefer: Used to be [00:09:45] complimentary. Exactly. Now since you mentioned these kind of phases where, where it's kind of flat or plateaued, I like plateau a little better.

[00:09:53] Um, yeah. Are you a dollar cost averaging then, or are you just regularly accumulating or, 

[00:09:58] Herbert Ong: yeah, I'm still [00:10:00] accumulating right now. Yeah. And like you, like you just said, dollar cost averaging, which is, it doesn't really. Uh, if I, uh, you know, I, I, I, I just had this great, uh, back and forth with Gary Black, who is an institutional analyst, who is, he is [00:10:15] actually a portfolio manager, and he was saying that 

[00:10:17] Axel Meierhoefer: he's, he decided today to follow me finally.

[00:10:19] Herbert Ong: Oh, good. Yeah. So he is like, uh. Yeah, you know, it, it is interesting. Different people have different perspective, which is, again, nothing, nothing's mine. But he, he was making fun [00:10:30] of people who don't understand valuation. He was saying, you know, you guys who are retail investors, what you like to do is talk a lot about business and product, but you rarely talk about valuation is Tesla stock, the company market valuation.[00:10:45] 

[00:10:45] At a fair price and he wants it to be at a fair price. He wants it to be lower before he buys into it. And he sold, you know, at three 40, whatever number it was, and he wants to buy back at two 50 'cause he sees the thing and I just replied saying, that's fair, that's [00:11:00] fine. You can do that. Because you're a portfolio manager.

[00:11:03] I'm a retail investor, and I am a growth investor, and you are what I think your definition of who you really are is a value investor. And you'll say, no, no, I'm not a value investor. A value investor is somebody who's looking [00:11:15] for when the stock is cheap. And, and, and, uh, he's also, they're also looking for momentum, momentum place.

[00:11:21] So if the stock has fallen, they'll buy more. If the stock is up, they'll sell. That's perfectly fine. That's great. You should do that. You can maximize your return. [00:11:30] But for me, I'm looking at growth. I'm looking at companies that are disruptive. Uh, apple is example is a perfect example. I was, uh, very heavily into Apple and realized that that company is disrupting.[00:11:45] 

[00:11:45] Multiple industries. And so you, you know, when you disrupt an industry, you, you will not only gain 10, 15%, but I'm looking for the 10 Xer. I'm looking for the thing that can just completely win a market or you know, a significant amount of it, of a brand new market [00:12:00] that is massive. So when I look at Tesla, I'm going, okay, they have the largest markets.

[00:12:04] They're in the top, I don't know, five markets. I mean like they're in energy. Right. They're an ai right now. They're in labor [00:12:15] robotics, uh, and auto. The only one that they're not into is pharmaceuticals, which is another top market, you know? Uh, but. So for me, it's like, and they're disrupting each of those.

[00:12:26] So that's what I'm waiting for. So for me, I, I, I'm, again, no [00:12:30] financial advice. 'cause I think every person is very different from each other and nobody's right or wrong, but in this case, Gary said, oh no, you guys are not looking at valuation. And I said, well, no, I, I'm not a value investor, I'm a growth investor and I'm looking for one that's gonna grow.

[00:12:43] And so this [00:12:45] stock is gonna be flat. It's gonna be just, you know, up and down and I'm fine with that. So I'll just keep buying it because I'm waiting for a 10 x not, not a 1520 x. And so, yeah. 

[00:12:54] Axel Meierhoefer: I, I'm with you. I think, I mean, if I had to go by what Gary has been [00:13:00] posting, well probably the whole last 12 month, I would say, number one, I wouldn't call him a value investor.

[00:13:06] I would call him an earnings investor. Mm-hmm. 

[00:13:08] Herbert Ong: Right? 

[00:13:09] Axel Meierhoefer: Because it seems like his claim is constantly, if you don't show me earnings, then I'm not convinced that you're gonna [00:13:15] go where you're claiming to go. The other part is, I find this so funny, I don't know if I'm allowed to say this because he is a established analyst, right?

[00:13:24] But to me it's a little bit of a weird thing to bragging about [00:13:30] Uber after having pretty much missed the whole steep curve because they were not profitable, had no earnings or nothing, but they grew Like you as an, as a growth investor, if that would've been your thing. You would've been on that journey all the way up to where they [00:13:45] are.

[00:13:45] And he comes in when they're already starting to make some earnings to tell us why you have to show me the earnings before I buy. I'm like, okay, that's too late. Right. You're getting It's too late. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[00:13:57] Herbert Ong: I mean, you'll make some money, but it's, uh, you know, it's, it's [00:14:00] when you're waiting for earnings.

[00:14:01] And then the thing is, I don't want to be invested in a company like an Uber. That now he believes Uber's going to be successful. And that's fine. You can believe that. But if there's any, even a whiff, any kind of like potential for a company to be [00:14:15] dis be the one that's disrupted, I, I don't want to be involved in that.

[00:14:18] I don't wanna risk it, but there's a real chance that Uber's going to be disruptive and the, the disrupted and their business gonna be completely wiped out. But, um, maybe they'll succeed. 

[00:14:28] Axel Meierhoefer: Yeah. Well, I, I think you and I, [00:14:30] we both could, could agree on one thing. If they want to be successful, they better license FSD.

[00:14:35] Herbert Ong: Yeah. Um, uh, so they understand that they are talking the game. They're saying that they understand that the future is autonomy. They just think that, I think this is, [00:14:45] this is the, the crux of the argument is they think that, uh, autonomy is going to be a commodity. So it's funny that, you know, on one side they'll say, I don't see Tesla ever getting to autonomy.

[00:14:55] It's gonna be five years or 10 years. Oh yeah. There's, um, you know, nine nines to get all the [00:15:00] different, um, edge cases. But on the other side, they go as soon as Tesla gets it all, everybody will have it in three to six months. So, okay. And that's the bet. And I just can't, don't agree that everyone will have it.

[00:15:14] Now, [00:15:15] I do agree that, um, autonomy and Robo Taxii is not a winner. It's like Tesla's not gonna win every single market because it's like every geography will have their own, you know, favored, uh, tax local company that they want to focus on. They'll have, uh, regulations, [00:15:30] so Tesla's not gonna win every market, but, uh, they will win most.

[00:15:34] And the, and the, the competition's just not gonna be as good in terms of cost per mile in terms of the experience itself. Um, and, and just I can't, I can't see that [00:15:45] happening at this point. Yeah. 

[00:15:46] Axel Meierhoefer: Yeah. I'm with you, Herbert. And the other part about it that, that I find is, is really important to recognize in this context.

[00:15:54] And it's, I think, a beautiful bridge to maybe the things that we spent the rest of our [00:16:00] conversation about. You have to have the data, right? I mean, everybody who is even interested in this field and wants to become knowledgeable, I believe, and I'm not claiming that I'm anywhere near where I wanna be in, in knowledge, [00:16:15] but I believe I have clearly understood and many others, and I believe you too, would would say the one or those who have the data have at least the best opportunity to be successful in the market.

[00:16:29] And then the [00:16:30] others who don't have the data have to make a choice if they want to have a license. Yeah. But to be successful without the data and without the license, I don't see it. How do you think about that? 

[00:16:41] Herbert Ong: Yeah, I mean, I think this is the crux of the matter. Do you [00:16:45] believe Elon, when he says that in order to have a roboto taxii autonomous, uh, capability, you need to have supercomputers, you need to have billions of miles of data.

[00:16:55] You need to have the smartest engineers in the world to build you the neural nets. And of course, [00:17:00] you need to have the cars and all the technology that you can't forget about, which often people do. So, uh, but if you don't believe that, if you somehow think. Gary Black says this, he says that, oh, uh, every single company will copy Tesla within three months, six [00:17:15] months.

[00:17:15] And I asked him, I interviewed him. I asked him, well, sorry, what makes you think, what, what gives you that knowledge that that's gonna happen? And his answer was simply that, well, every that's happened to every software company out there. That's, that was it. And I'm like, okay, this is not [00:17:30] software. This is norm.

[00:17:30] That's, this requires billions of miles of data. But if you don't think that that's the case, and there is, I think there's a potential that. In three plus years, a GI can solve, uh, autonomous driving without needing that [00:17:45] data. So there is that possibility. So we've, I've been exploring that, diving in deeper into conversations with, you know, people who might know the matter, whether or not that is the case, but even by then, so the, that's the other thing.

[00:17:56] Okay. Do you need data or don't you need data? Yes, you do. There's [00:18:00] no doubt about it. You, that's why it's taking Tesla, you know, they're knocking out the, the, the edge cases as we go along today. 'cause you're teaching it. Okay. What do you do when somebody's waving with you, with a, with a stop sign in the hand?

[00:18:11] Can you recognize that? Or the, the latest things that they're teaching [00:18:15] Tesla cars to do now is. Going to the toll booth and AMI confirmed that they're teaching how to do that, and it actually listens in to the conversation and it knows that a transaction has to happen, and when the person says, good, goodbye.[00:18:30] 

[00:18:30] Or whatever words that they use, the neural net understands the context and says, okay, we're ready to drive away. Or does it recognize a drive-through? And so most recently we saw a video of one of the Tesla cars in a drive-through and it knows how to, [00:18:45] you know, like to edge a little closer to the window so that you could talk to the person and you can exchange if you need to.

[00:18:50] Money. It knew how to do that. And so these are. Cases where you need to teach it using data and, and teaching it how to do neural nets. But if you don't believe that [00:19:00] you don't need that, then yeah. Anyways. The other point I wanna make is that, let's say that it is true that other car companies can copy it in three to six months.

[00:19:09] Fine. Now it becomes when are they gonna roll this out? So who's gonna, [00:19:15] even Waymo, who's so far ahead has basically plans for 3,500 cars by the end of next year. They have 1,500 now. 3,500 max next year. How fast can you roll out cars? Let's say Ford just says, okay, I've got access now [00:19:30] to deep seeks a GI, and I'm gonna use their open ais or uh, NVIDIA's software.

[00:19:36] Great. How long will it take them to produce all these cars? How many millions, well, they need to install [00:19:45] computers into the cars. They need to install all the cameras. They need to have everything integrated. Um, that will take them three plus years to enroll out, you know, a hundred thousand if they're very lucky by then.

[00:19:56] Where would Tesla be at that point? I mean, how many millions that [00:20:00] they'd be doing? And I just did a show, uh, last week with Brian White and we took a look at, um, which is shocking to me is how many. Car companies is actually already today even announced. Just announced that they're creating a robot taxi first [00:20:15] design vehicle, a vehicle without a steering wheel and pedal.

[00:20:18] So the only ones is Tesla with their robo taxis and robo vans. Then you got Zoox, which is kind of this, this beautiful, you know, van like kind of thing. Yeah. 

[00:20:28] Axel Meierhoefer: Box. 

[00:20:28] Herbert Ong: That's it. 

[00:20:29] Axel Meierhoefer: [00:20:30] Yeah. 

[00:20:30] Herbert Ong: Not I, I've not heard of any Chinese automaker that's done this. I've not heard of any, um, even Waymo. Waymo's supposed to be so far ahead, way ahead of everybody, but they just take a regular car and attach a bunch of things to it.

[00:20:42] That is their, their effort Today, they [00:20:45] have not yet announced a robo taxi first design vehicle. 'cause if you truly believe that robo taxis around a corner, Waymo with your technology, why aren't you already today designing a vehicle without a steering wheel pedal? So, 

[00:20:56] Axel Meierhoefer: yeah, there, there are. So quite a few things to unpack.

[00:20:59] One [00:21:00] thing. I think is very important, and Jeff speaks about this all the time for the audience, Jeff Lutz is, is an amazing logistics expert. I think people massively, massively [00:21:15] underestimate the benefit of vertical integration. Yeah. Right. I mean, if you ask yourself, I'm, I'm sure, I mean, I'm, I'm preaching to the choir in a sense, but anybody who looks at this a little bit through the economic lens.

[00:21:28] Would say, okay, it's not [00:21:30] enough to say, is it technologically possible for somebody else, regardless whether three months, six months, nine months, a year. But does it make sense economically? So if you say, okay, I make the car, I can improve the car, I have the [00:21:45] compute, I have the camera system. For years, I've done the whole evolution through FSD, I have basically the charging.

[00:21:52] I have ev the whole full vertical integration. I believe that is ultimately, if you ask me the [00:22:00] economic case that says this can be economically successful, I'm not even doubting that others may actually be technically successful. 

[00:22:10] Herbert Ong: Yeah, 

[00:22:11] Axel Meierhoefer: exactly. But it gives me pause just to say this, this one thing, you [00:22:15] brought Apple in the conversation, if I'm not mistaken.

[00:22:18] They spent officially about 10 billion. I wouldn't be surprised if they probably spent twice as much. Looking into should we, and can we actually figure this out? And they're not Apple car. Mm-hmm. They're not [00:22:30] slouches, right. They're not like unaware of what's technological. They have pretty good talent, I would say.

[00:22:36] They're making a product that everybody else is kind of aspiring to and hasn't even in what, 20 years now? 2007, almost 20 years, 18 years. When [00:22:45] the iPhone came out, nobody has really matched it. They're getting close, but not quite. So for me it's, one thing is can it technically be accomplished by throwing all kinds of stuff together?

[00:22:56] Then is it also an economically viable thing? And you know, the [00:23:00] CEO of of um, Ford not very long ago, we both heard the interview where he said, what people underestimate is when you have to take the stuff from 150 companies and put it all together and make it work in one car. Well, that's basically what they're talking about, autonomous as [00:23:15] well.

[00:23:15] Now I wanna make a little transition here Herbert, and say, okay, so we spoke about the car case, the robot, robot taxi, the autonomous, their cyber cab. Now let's take the next little puff of, of, um, [00:23:30] of chocolate or mousse or whatever you wanna call it. 

[00:23:32] Herbert Ong: Mm-hmm sure. 

[00:23:33] Axel Meierhoefer: And add Optimus to this. Yeah. 

[00:23:35] Herbert Ong: Yeah. 

[00:23:36] Axel Meierhoefer: Ways I would like to first ask you a little bit Optimus humanoid robot in the context of additional [00:23:45] inference was probably the same chip you spoke today about AI five and AI six.

[00:23:51] So the ch same inference. Basically working like a brain in a human specific environment because everything is built that [00:24:00] way. How do you see those two things kind of connecting and supporting the technology? 

[00:24:05] Herbert Ong: Yeah. So first of all, um, I, I, before we move there, I, I think they're all connected. Uh, I just wanna, uh, jump on your point, which is, uh, the most important point, right?

[00:24:14] So it's [00:24:15] one thing if whether or not, let's say. Other car companies, auto vendors, other vendors will be able to create autonomous software. That's one point as you just point. Right. But if you look at, let's say, let's say, give an example, Waymo and Uber. So it, it would [00:24:30] discount it, right? So if Waymo wanted to compete with Tesla and they have to, for some reason they did partner with Uber to be the app vendor, they need to partner with some sort of car company.

[00:24:44] Whether it's [00:24:45] Zeer or Jaguar who ran, ran out of, you know, no longer producing that car anymore, they need to partner with Nvidia paying Nvidia the inference chips, uh, which is 70% markups. They need to partner with somebody like an Avis to be able to [00:25:00] do the supercharging. Or the, the cleaning, the maintenance, the service of the company.

[00:25:05] They have to partner with a company like, uh, Magna, who takes the car company, the Zeer or the Jaguar, and then they have to, they, they pay them to put all the [00:25:15] sensors all around it. Right? Uh, and so at, at that point, it's like, what, you have like eight people you're paying, 

[00:25:22] Axel Meierhoefer: you're really generous because you didn't even mention all the companies that make the census.

[00:25:27] Which they also, 

[00:25:28] Herbert Ong: Hey, lighter, you have to make it [00:25:30] lighter companies, right? And then the sensors. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Radar companies because, because you don't make them. Right, right. Here's Tesla does everything in one place. Yeah. So, and this, and because of that, they're able to also take advantage of, like you said, the robots.

[00:25:44] They, they, they [00:25:45] call the cars robots on wheels, and then they're creating these humanoid robots. Well, now what you've done is created, um, let's say you're making a couple million robots on wheels of vehicles every day, and they're all potentially to be autonomous. Now you're gonna start making millions of [00:26:00] robots, humanoid robots.

[00:26:02] But they're all using the same sensors, the same, uh, cameras. The same chips in inference chips, um, and, and the same batteries. 'cause Tesla makes the same, the batteries. And then, so Tesla will make every part. [00:26:15] That they're already, you know, some parts, it's all brand new, the actuators and so forth, but, uh, much of it they can reuse.

[00:26:22] They're using the same, uh, FSD computers that they use to teach FSD the car to be able to drive autonomously. [00:26:30] They can use that same research that they there and those data plus add new data to be able to do that to, to teach the robot. They're gonna use the same, um, colo cortex, which is the supercomputers that they, uh.

[00:26:43] They built in Giga, [00:26:45] Texas, and then there's Cortex Two, which is a massive data center. Both of these data centers support not only FSD, the cars, but they're gonna now support the robots too. So all of this, so if you're Waymo. You need to have a [00:27:00] supercomputer, now you need to build a supercomputer, you know, a building and where, where's your data for that?

[00:27:05] And then, but you're not doing the human robots and so your, your scale is much less. And so, yeah, it's a big deal. 

[00:27:11] Axel Meierhoefer: Absolutely. I mean, one thing, you know, I'm always trying to [00:27:15] envision a little bit how would something look like in the future, and I would love to talk to you a little bit about that. But one of the aspects in this context.

[00:27:23] If we going beyond Optimus in the manufacturing environment and going a little bit more [00:27:30] towards the age of abundance, then I would say with everything you just laid out, we will have Optimus report edge cases from the perspective of a [00:27:45] pedestrian to the system, to the universe environment. Right, right now.

[00:27:50] Ever since FSD started and then the beta tester started collecting data, it was always from the perspective of the car. But when Optimus in larger [00:28:00] numbers in the world all over, the place starts going around like when you, you have yours and I have mine and say, okay, go to the shop and get me some dog food or something like that.

[00:28:10] Well, maybe it right here is something, but maybe it has enough time to just walk if it's [00:28:15] close by. But it's now basically entering a human made environment. Using exactly the technology you just described. So we have quote unquote edge cases, the car reports, and we have edge cases that the humanoid [00:28:30] robot reports.

[00:28:31] It gets like layer after layer after layer. It becomes really hard to make a case that anybody can match that. 

[00:28:38] Herbert Ong: Yeah, if you, again, you have to, uh, do you believe what Elon says or you don't, and guess what? He's almost always right. Most [00:28:45] people, like Jensen Wong believes what he says. Uh, what he's saying now is that the race to a GI, the race to AI is, is basically, if you notice every single company, they're all basically leapfrogging each other.

[00:28:58] They're basically there. [00:29:00] The reason is because they've all used the same data. The data that's available is for large language models, um, is just basically the internet data, and they've gotten YouTube data and that's it. What Elon is saying today is [00:29:15] that, uh, you need to get the other data, which is real world data, and that is the cars driving around and all those vision that is grabbing all the, everything that it drives, it grabs all that data.

[00:29:26] They're the only company that has that. And once they make [00:29:30] a million bots, you know, more bots than anyone else, those bots. And the example he gave was like, you know, pouring water into a cup. Yeah. When the bot pours water into the cup, the bot can see. Physics and watches the waterfall and it sees what it does in the cup [00:29:45] and can see whether or not it's gonna splish out or whatever.

[00:29:47] That video is not easily accessible by the other car. Uh, the other companies like Meta, Google, Google DeepMind, right? Nvidia. Until you get all these bots who's gonna be watching and, [00:30:00] and interacting with the world. Yeah. Opening up my fridge. Opening up your fridge and opening up my fridge is very different.

[00:30:05] Opening up your door, my door is very different. Yeah, totally. Take all those data and then test physics and understand physics just like a child would. Walking around the world, [00:30:15] understanding how the world works, that vi that data, that video data is not, is, doesn't exist today. And that's what you need to get to a GI.

[00:30:23] So a lot of people think embodied AI is the, one of the ways, like there's a debate. I think 50% of the experts out there [00:30:30] believe that you can get to a GI with the computers inside your computer server. And others think that you cannot get to a GI until you've got embodied ai, like a, an AI in the form of something that's interacting with the world.

[00:30:43] That's what leads to [00:30:45] some sort of consciousness or some level of consciousness. But so that's the lead that Tesla has, is they have all this real world data already with the cars, and then soon whoever can make the most bots. We'll have the most real world data that the bots will capture, and [00:31:00] then that's what gets us to a GI faster than others.

[00:31:03] That's the bet he's making, 

[00:31:05] Axel Meierhoefer: right? Yeah. And I mean, then there's the next one about super intelligence. Um, and, and where that goes. I, I want to go back to the, to this kind of [00:31:15] flowing together of technologies that Tesla is making. We haven't even spoken really. In any detail about energy. But when we go to the age of abundance, Tony, at least in his book, is saying, imagine a world.

[00:31:27] Uh, the little pieces that I remember [00:31:30] is imagine a world where energy and labor are free or virtually free. Yeah. When you imagine this and you spoke to him, what would you say, how does Herbert see this world? But maybe also when, when do you think we are getting close to that? [00:31:45] Because I think. This transition that Tony speaks about from the age of extraction to the age of abundance is kind of what it feels like we're in the middle of right now.

[00:31:54] Give us a little bit your vision of how fast are we getting there and how is it gonna look like? 

[00:31:59] Herbert Ong: Wow. [00:32:00] Okay. I think, uh, again, just to remind everybody how the S curves work, right? S curves are very slow and flat for long time with minimal little growth, right? And you're seeing a little curve, and then at some point you get to that s and then all of a sudden it's [00:32:15] exponential growth, and then you can't even capture how fast that is.

[00:32:19] So there's three main technologies that he talks about. To get us to this abundant world in the future. The first one is near zero cost energy, right? And that is an [00:32:30] example is that an extractive world, which is what we've lived all of our hundreds and hundreds of years, thousands of years here in the earth, is we extract oil.

[00:32:38] Which is some input and we turn that into energy when then turns into products and businesses. Right. But that oil, [00:32:45] you need to keep supplying more and more oil, more input. Yeah. And if you want to grow, if companies wanna grow their GDP, they want to grow businesses, they have to get more of that input.

[00:32:54] But what happens when you have the sun? The sun is infinite energy and [00:33:00] it's store. You store that in batteries. You have solar and batteries to store that. What happens is energy plummets to near zero, right? So when you have infinite near zero cost energy, what does that do to the world in terms of what you're able to build?[00:33:15] 

[00:33:15] You can build anything. It's lower cost. And then the second thing is low cost labor. The third thing is low cost transportation, right? So when you get robots and you virtually cost you nothing to build, 'cause the bots can work three shifts a day. Uh, they're, they can [00:33:30] just keep repeating something and they, they can make more than a, they, they eventually, they'll be super human too, by the way.

[00:33:35] They'll move three times faster than a human. They'll, they'll make less mistakes. Uh, all these kind of things. And eventually what happens when you can make any product at low cost. [00:33:45] And that's, then the third one is, uh, low cost transportation, because the cost of most of the products we buy from Amazon, it's, it's, you know, they've already got, uh, cheap labor, uh, and automation in China.

[00:33:56] The factories are so incredibly efficient, [00:34:00] but then it's the cost of delivery of that. Uh, just like robotaxis, the cost is mostly the human driving. And so when you, what happens when it's autonomous, everything that moves will become autonomous. So now you've got these three. So where are we? I, I think that we're [00:34:15] just at the beginning of that S-curve.

[00:34:16] Um, and, uh, uh, what's that? What's the guy's name, who's the singularity is near? Um, he wrote that book, the Singularity is near, uh, Ray, Ray Kurzwell. Ray Kal and he predicted that [00:34:30] by 2029 that we would get to a GI by 2029. So we're literally just what, four years away from that. And the funny thing about that was he made that prediction and 20 years ago.

[00:34:42] What happened is 99% of all [00:34:45] AI experts at the time said, oh, you're you's, no, you're nowhere near. It's not, it's gonna be a hundred plus years. Good. And then every five or 10 years, they would redo that survey with the top AI minds and you watch their predictions keep getting closer and closer. And [00:35:00] Rik as well said, 2029.

[00:35:02] And here we are exactly to his, he's, he's nailed everything so perfectly. Um, and, and that is where we might go. So I think by literally in a few years, right, four years from now, we'll get to a GI. So, [00:35:15] but I dunno how we're gonna get to abundant energy that requires Elon and, and his and what he's trying to push hard for that.

[00:35:22] But, uh, the mega packs, yeah. So 

[00:35:26] Axel Meierhoefer: well with the abundant energy, if you ask my opinion, it is [00:35:30] really just a matter. Of somewhere, someone actually taking the first step. And I know that there's this building or has been a lot on the media and in politics, which I don't really want to go to, but there is this constant [00:35:45] vilifying of China, right?

[00:35:46] Like China, the enemy, they do everything wrong, blah, blah, blah. But when you really leave that aside, just put it in a box and look at the data. You see on the energy side, they're basically practicing it. And, [00:36:00] and I am researching this out of personal interest quite a bit because I've always been fascinated by the Eastern countries and what these guys do different.

[00:36:08] And you could debate their system good or bad, but what they do is they do long-term strategic [00:36:15] plans based on an Indus industrial, uh, strategy. When Obama signed together with many, many countries in the world, the Paris Climate Accord, they said, we want to be energy independent, like renewable [00:36:30] energy independent by 2050.

[00:36:31] And now everybody says probably by 2040, but already today with a growing economy, they're producing somewhere slightly above 50%, and almost all of it is solar. They also did [00:36:45] things like the Invent a cable that has almost no heat, no loss over like a thousand miles. So they put the panels in the Gobi Desert where nobody lives and deliver it to Shanghai and to Beijing.

[00:36:58] Uh, 

[00:36:58] Herbert Ong: so 

[00:36:58] Axel Meierhoefer: to me [00:37:00] the, it takes a spark. And I don't know if Elon or Tesla is going to have to be the spark again, like so many times. Oh, for sure. 

[00:37:09] Herbert Ong: Yeah. I have a prediction on that. So yeah, 

[00:37:12] Axel Meierhoefer: let me say one more thing, but I am [00:37:15] personally, um, I think actually it would be cool if Redwood would do it. If Redwood would actually say, we make the solar panels and we recycle the batteries and we make a circular economy.

[00:37:27] But you had an idea too. 

[00:37:29] Herbert Ong: No, no. [00:37:30] So first of all, I totally agree with you, uh, China is, you gotta be concerned for the US if you don't watch and listen to what China's doing, they, they're so far ahead in energy generation and storage, uh, eight times. And like you said, solar and batteries is what they've made their [00:37:45] bets in than the us So whoever.

[00:37:48] Gets cheap energy will rule the world, period. No doubt about it. And, uh, especially with, uh, AI data centers requiring so much, uh, energy, what's gonna happen in the future. So, uh, I [00:38:00] believe, my, my prediction and, and you had Alexandra Tz here on the, on your show, the last episode. She and I have been having this debate, but she knows I've been saying this for a while now.

[00:38:09] I believe that Tessa's gonna do energy generation. The reason is that when Elon announced the [00:38:15] master plan part three, he had three pillars to to sustainable abundance, and one of them was energy generation. Tesla doesn't do much in solar. So I believe that Tesla's going to make a big announcement very soon [00:38:30] about some sort of massive solar farm, whether it's in Texas or distributed, or even in Saudi Arabia, and prove, like you're saying, just some sort of proof that this amount of, you know, square miles.

[00:38:42] Uh, is enough to [00:38:45] power a city or a state or the country. And, uh, I think Tesla's gonna get there because, uh, they need energy generation to be able to show you everything we're talking about. This is low cost energy. And then, uh, partner with the mega packs [00:39:00] to store the energy, the batteries, and then we.

[00:39:03] It's, it's it's game over at that point. So if Tess Elon has ambitions of creating these AI data centers and he kind of did this little smiley s murky face when somebody said, Hey, [00:39:15] Elon, are you thinking about creating AI data and selling AI data centers, you know, smiley face? I think that that's where he's headed, right?

[00:39:22] So you take this, the data centers you create, you, you have batteries, mega packs, and you have solar. [00:39:30] To fund to, to, because whoever owns the energy, the energy's the, the rate limiting step right now for these. And then he could take that build most, build many, sell them, or even just have access to it themselves.

[00:39:41] And so I think that that's, uh, that's why he needs to build these, [00:39:45] the, these solar farms. Yeah, 

[00:39:47] Axel Meierhoefer: I, I have a suspicion, I have no evidence to support it other than just gut feeling. But I have a suspicion, this endeavor that they started to take initially regular solar city panels. Right, [00:40:00] and make that into a business and integrate that into Tesla.

[00:40:04] And then this idea to make it look beautiful by having a Tesla, a solar roof. I think this is, like I said, complete speculation, but I have the suspicion [00:40:15] that somewhere. I don't know if it's in Buffalo or somewhere. There is a team, yes. Looking into Persia, uh, panels and the regular panels and the high energy panels and the dual side and dual spectrum and blah, blah, blah, [00:40:30] that at some point in the no two distant future, they're gonna come out and say, okay, we have the 35% panel or the 40% panel so we can kind of have a much smaller.

[00:40:41] Size. I've seen now research where they, where you can, and I'm [00:40:45] not saying this is mega feasible, but you can even get, uh, moonlight to generate electricity. Yeah. The spectrum. It's really a matter of what spectrum are you actually aiming for and can you make it economically viable. But [00:41:00] what really where it comes to together for me is that all these pieces fitting together out of one.

[00:41:07] System where all the people that are working within the system, they are all fed by the same [00:41:15] core rather than individual. Somewhere in the world, somebody develops and de discovers something, and it isn't implemented. It isn't aligned, it isn't anything near. What the other, uh, organizations do. And then you have this issue that [00:41:30] like, um, the Ford guy said, or the Volkswagen people say, while we are buying this stuff, we're basically just assembling why That's never gonna compete against somebody who literally makes everything in-house.

[00:41:41] Yeah. Now, uh, you, 

[00:41:44] Herbert Ong: yeah, [00:41:45] that's, I do think that their solar, uh, energy, Tesla's solar business, right. They pulled away from homes. Yeah. I don't think that they were, they were struggling. They were trying to make good money there, but I think that they're redirecting those people to businesses, corporations or something.

[00:41:59] Like you're [00:42:00] talking about some sort of a, uh, I think a solar farms, my, my. 

[00:42:04] Axel Meierhoefer: Okay, cool. So coming towards the end of our show today, I wanna ask you to maybe let loose and think a little bit in the future. 

[00:42:14] Herbert Ong: Yeah. 

[00:42:14] Axel Meierhoefer: When we, [00:42:15] when, when you and I, I, I at least hope we both each have a, uh, an Optimus Yeah. We have access to cyber cab.

[00:42:24] We may still have a Tesla if we want to drive a little bit. And these other [00:42:30] integrated technologies we have. Whatever then is it GPT nine or whatever it's gonna be. Um, imagine a little bit for the audience. How will life look like when these things that Tony is projecting, or whether it's 2029 or [00:42:45] 30 32, forget about the year, but how would life look like in your vision?

[00:42:50] Herbert Ong: Uh, okay. So first of all, I've, I've been very fortunate because of, uh, the, you know, what my job is today where I get to interview experts, uh, [00:43:00] daily. I ha I've, I've happened to have interviewed 13 of the top CEOs of the top humanoid, Bach companies out there. I've had, uh, Dr. Scott Walter on my show over a hundred and.

[00:43:11] 10 or 20 shows we've done on humanoid robots. [00:43:15] And, uh, and so that's just the thing that thrills me or it just gets me, you know, really just amazed at this. I, I have no idea what's gonna happen. I have zero guess of what could happen. I, I'm still at the 50 50 mark, 50% dystopia and 50% [00:43:30] utopia. Uh, I am generally by, as a person.

[00:43:32] It sounds like you are too, you know, age of abundance. I do. Am I lean towards optimism. That it's gonna be an amazing utopia kind of world, right? Uh, you know, what will, and then, but, but on the way there, [00:43:45] that's obviously I'm gonna be concerned about people losing their jobs. And, um, and there's gonna be a lot of people who are gonna be left in a lurch during that path to, uh, you know, where money doesn't matter and every product is available and transportation's low cost and so forth.[00:44:00] 

[00:44:00] So it's a path to get there that I'm very, very worried about. Uh, I'm thinking to myself, maybe the reason I want to make so much money if I can with the stock, is that one day I might need to have my own private island. Do, do I need a private island to protect myself? If it were in the [00:44:15] dystopia, I don't know.

[00:44:16] But, uh, if it's a utopia, I think the world is amazing. I mean, uh. I, I, it's hard to say 'cause a GI is like very useful for you, but then at some point it could be very destructive for you, right? It's like, do we [00:44:30] want a world where people are not using their brains anymore and everything's done for them, you know?

[00:44:35] So yeah. I, I hope it's a utopia. But, uh, you know, yes, I, I see a world where human robots are everywhere, and it's not just human robots, by [00:44:45] the way. Uh, you know, you hear Elon talk about, uh, both R 2D two NS C3 po, so R 2D two. So anything that moves anything but a camera will be autonomous. And so, and I think Tesla will be doing that.

[00:44:57] So I think you'll be shocked when we find out that [00:45:00] Tesla's not only been working on optimist, but many different form factors. So there'll be like robots everywhere. You'll have, you know, autonomous driving. Um, uh, and, and I hope the world's. You know, this is the world's, uh, [00:45:15] uh, environment has changed, right?

[00:45:16] So you don't have streets, uh, you know, you have more parks, uh, beautiful homes, uh, and, and everything is accessible to more people. Um, but, uh, I [00:45:30] don't know. 

[00:45:31] Axel Meierhoefer: Yeah, well, I'm not claiming that. I know one thing. There are a few things that I see where there's still two, specifically with a huge room for improvement.

[00:45:41] Uh, in a, in a way similar to what you and I spoke about with the [00:45:45] scur, right. Human beings really have a hard time imagining exponential. Yeah. I think what we have also been very conditioned for what thousands of years now as human beings is to basically pretty much live [00:46:00] almost exclusively in two dimensions.

[00:46:02] Herbert Ong: Mm-hmm. 

[00:46:02] Axel Meierhoefer: Except for the rare case where we get on a plane to go from A to B. To really explore whether you go in the direction of boring company or you go in the direction of some sort of like a, I don't know, a [00:46:15] robo air taxi or something like that. Right. So the whole evolution of three dimensional space and what is possible.

[00:46:21] I know that's also that stuff literally in space, but I mean more like between the ground and let's say a thousand feet or something like [00:46:30] that. Yeah. There's a whole new world I think, that we only see in the movies, but have a hard time. Yeah. Imagining how that, um, could actually go on the other part. And that's my last question for you.

[00:46:41] However, I believe there's [00:46:45] many, many, many people who have an amazing potential for innovation, creativity, um, willingness to support each other, building communities, but they are basically caught [00:47:00] in a dependent relationship to exchange their time for money. I, I wonder how you would describe it when that's no longer necessary.

[00:47:11] When, when you have abundance in the way that [00:47:15] you can really live up to your full potential. Do you see any, any things that that can do? 

[00:47:22] Herbert Ong: I have no idea, Felix. I, I, I asked myself that same question, you know, a few years ago. And that's why I'm doing what I'm doing. [00:47:30] Yeah. I said, okay, if I, if I am going to retire, I'm no longer running my startups.

[00:47:35] What do I wanna do? And it was okay. I want to be learning as much as I can about technology happens to, I enjoy learning about Tesla. I [00:47:45] want to meet people daily, like you and others. I interview everybody once a day and that's what I'm doing every day. So it's, for me, it's a fun now, but in the future. AI is gonna take over my job.

[00:47:56] I don't know if there's a need for a human to interview other [00:48:00] humans. It might just be we're all, we're all absorbing information from ai, uh, who are so human-like that you prefer to watch them, I think. But, uh, we'll see what happens there. So I don't know if, if I can see what would humans do. [00:48:15] Um, and so this idea of Neuralink, you know, if you, if you can download information as fast as AI can.

[00:48:22] Then what happens to you? What, what is your, uh, you know, purpose in life and your goals? Uh, it's hard to know. Yeah, 

[00:48:29] Axel Meierhoefer: yeah. [00:48:30] Well, one of the things I give you, one thought that I have had recently after studying a number of different technological utopian kind of, um, ideas is to say if we could, as an [00:48:45] individual or in the context of our families, dive into world.

[00:48:51] That may be artificially generated. Right. And our time there and experiment, like I, I didn't say this. I see at the beginning, you [00:49:00] know, like, but I come from an aviation background. Yeah. Where before they let you fly a fighter jet, they let you fly a simulator, right? Yes. And so the, one of the things that is quite eerie, but also reassuring is when you fly the [00:49:15] simulator, you're not thinking about it all the time.

[00:49:19] In the end, you kind of know that you're not gonna die if it crashes. Right. And so that, that thought to say, we can create environments where people or whole families can [00:49:30] dive into the environment and explore it. Yeah. Like life, like without the fear of starving or, you know, getting killed or what, and I don't mean the stupid killing games, I'm talking about the real environment where you can't distinguish [00:49:45] anymore.

[00:49:45] If it's actually real or if it is artificially generated, kind of like the Holodeck and Star Trek, the Holodeck 

[00:49:51] Herbert Ong: and Star Trek. I love this idea so much. I, you just got me very excited. I can see me, uh, and my family like, 'cause we, we, we like going to movies. We like to go [00:50:00] with. Uh, amusement parks. We love to play these, uh, you know, these games where you go to the mystery rooms until then becomes an adventure, but also you are learning something, right?

[00:50:09] Like, you know, dive deep into the world of insects and, and live with the insects and see what actually happens. I would love to do [00:50:15] that. 

[00:50:15] Axel Meierhoefer: Yeah, me too. I enjoy that all kind of idea. And see, the thing is we to always say, well, I would love to do it, but I have no time. But you would have. In the world right, to do that.

[00:50:25] And then you're 

[00:50:25] Herbert Ong: still learning and you're still, uh, experiencing something interesting. That could be very [00:50:30] cool. Yeah, I like that idea a lot. 

[00:50:32] Axel Meierhoefer: Me too. So how about tell the audience that if they haven't watched your show or haven't seen you on YouTube, how do they find you the best way? Sure. 

[00:50:40] Herbert Ong: I have a YouTube channel called Brighter with Herberts, and uh, I basically interview [00:50:45] experts on Tesla.

[00:50:46] We cover everything from human or robots to, you know. The, the technology that Tesla is doing, especially human, uh, the autonomous driving, anything that's new, we share that information. So I like to learn and so I like to interview people who are [00:51:00] experts in the spaces and try to get the, the best person that they can find to, uh, to share that information with us, the people.

[00:51:07] Axel Meierhoefer: Yeah. And I can tell the audience if you haven't done it yet, I've been doing it for years and it's awesome. And Herbert always finds new people to dive deeper and deeper. [00:51:15] So thank you for being on the tour. Thank you, 

[00:51:17] Herbert Ong: ax. Appreciate you. [00:51:30] [00:51:45] Okay.