The IDEAL Investor Show: The Path to Early Retirement

Ep 78 GoldCorp CEO, David Garofalo, on Gold Digital Currency and Diversifying Portfolio

April 26, 2023 Axel Meierhoefer Season 2 Episode 1
The IDEAL Investor Show: The Path to Early Retirement
Ep 78 GoldCorp CEO, David Garofalo, on Gold Digital Currency and Diversifying Portfolio
Become a supporter of the show
Get a shoutout in an upcoming episode!
Starting at $3/month
Show Notes Transcript

More on YouTube? Check the video version on Youtube

Who is the Guest?

A globally-recognized chief executive with over 30 years of experience in the creation and growth of multi-billion dollar sustainable mining businesses across multiple continents. 

Demonstrated track record of creating shareholder value through the delivery of long-term strategy, achievement of critical short-term performance goals, maintaining high standards of environmental and safety performance and community relationships, shaping organizational culture, and motivating and mentoring high-performance management teams. 

Mr. Garofalo has served as Chief Executive Officer, President, and Chairman of the board of directors of the Company since August 2020. Mr. Garofalo has worked in various leadership capacities in the natural resources sector over the last 30 years. Prior to joining the Company, he served as President, Chief Executive Officer, and director of Goldcorp Inc., a gold production company headquartered in Vancouver, until its sale to Newmont Corporation in April 2019.

Visit Him at: 



Start taking action right NOW!

Connect with us through social! We’d love to build a community of like-minded people like YOU!

Support the show

Hello, and welcome to another episode and a really, really special one. In The IDEAL Investor Show history, we got a really special guest. And I say that all the time. But this one is really, really special. It's David Garofalo, he was the CEO of one of the largest mining companies in the world called Gold Corp. And you can go on Google and find out and he was basically the one who administered and facilitated the merger with a very large gold mining company. And he over 30 years learned tons and tons and tons about how to actually invest in gold, and in mining, and now he's taking all that knowledge or that experience to basically create his own opportunity for investors because gold, normally if you buy it, buy the answer, stuff like that can be pretty expensive. As you know, right now, an ounce of gold is somewhere between 1800 - 2,000. So there is an alternative opportunity that we're going to talk about with David today. And it's a continuation of our desire in The IDEAL Investor Show to help you to diversify your investments. You know, we're all about residential real estate, and we want you to have something like 70% invested in that area. But that leaves the other 30% for other things. And part of that should be gold. And David is going to tell us why the way that he is offering us is a really good way for pretty much anybody to invest in gold to partially diversify your investment in that direction. So I'm really, really grateful he is probably the most prestigious guest we ever had on the show. And I hope you're gonna stay with us till the end because we're not just talking on gold, but also how does gold and how does investing in the macro economic environment that we're facing these days, influence and impact all of us. So this is a really, really special episode and I really encourage you to stay with it to the end. Stay tuned for this awesome episode. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the The IDEAL Investor Show today we have a special guest and it looks like he specifically dressed up but awesome background awesome surroundings, and he has a good story to tell about the weird weather. I remember Thomas Friedman once said it's a Global Weirding. It's not global warming or climate change. It's global reading. And we all experienced it in the last few years. So David Garofalo is with us and David, I probably butchered the last name. Welcome to the show. You pronounce it perfectly. Like a European like a European should pronounce an Italian name. Well done. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, cool. Well, welcome to the show. Again, what I want to do and I do this lately, with most shows is obviously we come together because you do kind of cool stuff with gold and value assets, which is what we are also very much interested in for diversification into stuff that retains its value. But before we do that and get into the details, tell us a little bit. How did you get to where you are today and you know what you're actually doing on a day to day? Certainly Well, I've been in the mining business for over 33 years to be exact. My most recent role was the president and CEO of gold Corp. and I led the largest merger in gold mining industry history $32 billion merger with Newmont in 2019 to create the world's biggest gold company by market cap and production. And that's true to this day. Before that I was running a copper company called Hudbay minerals and build three large scale mines in the Americas and spent 12 years at Agnico Eagle as CFO of Nikko is, I think the third largest company by market cap in the gold industry today. And I was there from the early days when it was $200 million market cap. And when I left it was 10 billion. And we grown obviously exponentially over that time, and started my career within that minute on the base metal side. So I've spent equal amounts of time in base and precious metals. And just over two and a half years ago, I founded gold royalty Corp and took it to market and IPO on the NYSC in March of 2021, we raised$90 million. And we are the fastest growing precious metal royalty company in the world having gone from 18 royalties in our IPO to over 200 royalties today exclusively in the Americas in the best mining jurisdictions in the world, with the highest compounded annual growth rate and revenue in the entire industry as well. Oh, that's really cool. And I'm honored that you know, I mean, having you is special because before I even ever did anything in real estate, I thought gold and mining meaning like investing then in the mining stocks was kind of like a unique place to do stock investments because it's not just do the people that run the business know how to run the business well, but it's the promise of newly discovered reserve truly coming to fruition and if that's the case, then it can be a massive homerun and I I've read a whole bunch of stories on how that can go. And I'm sure you have had a couple of those where they were kind of estimated reserves. And then you went a little bit into the actual ground and actually did real sampling and stuff and found what it truly was. So yeah, that's really cool. Now, you mentioned you found it, gold royalty, but I'm pretty sure not everybody is aware what a royalty is. Can you explain a little bit how that works and what it is? Yeah, of course, a royalty is actually a contract to get a percentage of the gross revenue from a mine. And generally, the way we're able to secure those royalties is providing capital to the explorers and developers and emerging producers to help them build their minds out. Or sometimes we acquire the royalties through the acquisition from third parties. prospectors who stake the exploration claims and took royalties back and looking for ways to crystallize the value of their royalty portfolio. And sometimes we originate our own royalties, we have a small team in Reno and a small team in Val d'Or, Quebec, who stake exploration claims around existing mines and then wait for the neighbors and knock on the door and ask for the property. Because deposits don't know me and manmade get boundaries, and they need to drill into our property. And we farmed the property out to the explorers, the developers, the operators, and take a royalty back and return. So that just requires a sweat equity. It's an infinite rate of return on that type of investment, as you can imagine. And so we do a lot of that, in fact, 40 of our 215 royalties were generated organically in that way. And so by virtue of having just a percentage of the top line of the gross revenue, we completely insulate our shareholders from cost inflation, we don't worry about the margins of the mind the operating costs, the capital costs, expansion costs. Once we own the royalties, we own them in perpetuity, they go with the land, we have a lien on the property is effectively so they're bankrupt proof, the operators can change hands, it doesn't matter, we have that royalty forever. And the great thing about our Turner 15 royalties is they're completely bought and paid for we never have to put another dime in them, we never are gonna have capital calls, we just wait and harvest our share of the revenue when these become productive mines. And so now today, we have within that royalty portfolio of 215, royalties, eight cash flowing royalties, we have another 15 and various stages of construction. And then we have another 180. Plus royalties provide us exposure to early stage exploration opportunities right through to feasibility. So that's an organic pipeline that we'll be delivering growth for our shoulders for many, many years to come. And our growth has been so rapid that only 10 months after IPO, we introduced the dividend, we have free cash flow this year, we have about a 1.6% yield at current share prices. And given the growth that we have in our revenue over the next five to 10 years of 60% compounded annual growth in our portfolio, that means that we have a high probability of increasing our dividend over time as well. That was beautifully explained one thing maybe for me trying to comprehend, let's maybe start out somebody says, Okay, I think this is promising ground, they, you know, by the claim they have a certain piece, they do the exploration, do they only do exploration on the ground that they have a claim to? Or wouldn't it? I mean, I'm trying to understand, you know, you guys obviously would say, okay, whether it's somebody who has already found in a promising ground or has already started in mind, so we buy stuff around it, the first question, I guess anybody would say is why wouldn't people that actually originally thought there was something there and did them what an exploration methods and then when they start, it should actually start giving them money, even just on the reserves? Even if it isn't out of the ground yet? Why would they not buy like everything that is in the reasonable vicinity? Well, the reason is, we're all human. And we make mistakes. Sometimes it's errors. Sometimes it's just not knowing the ground very well. And that's the value of having Jerry Bachman, who runs our Nevada Business in Glen Mullen, who runs our Quebec and Ontario business. These are people that have been on the ground for over 30 years in that area. These are geologically prospective districts, prolifically operating districts with significant large scale mines. Having that expertise on the ground over many, many decades, is a distinct competitive advantage relative to our peers, or relative to the some of the companies that we're competing for ground with. So we quite often fill it the hole in the doughnut, sometimes they miss a claim position within a larger land package. And quite often we're opportunistic and state that claim and then wait for them to knock on our door. What we don't do is put money in the ground, we do not explore that's not our business model. We don't take that kind of risk. We don't take operating risks. We don't take capital expenditure risks, we don't build mines. What we do is provide capital we're effectively a financial institution, specifically focused on the mining industry. We have a collection and our board and management of people that have significant expertise in building operating mines, and then we assess As the quality of the land position, the quality of the geological district, we stake expiration claims in there, and then we wait for the neighbors and knock on the door. And then we farm the property up before it requires any meaningful capital. So we don't spend the money, we invest, and we take royalties back in return. And that's really the beauty of the business model wide, it insulates shareholders from cost inflation, it provides the optimum leverage to the gold price, because if the gold price goes up, or revenue goes up with it, but it protects you from inflation, and also exposes you to exploration upside, because as our operating partners, drill their deposits out and grow them geologically. Our royalties extend on any growth in the reserves as well. So we have exploration upside, will that actually have to invest in it? Last year, for example, our operating partners invested $200 million in exploration on their properties, we contributed nothing to those budgets, but we got the upside from that, by virtue of a royalty position on their properties. Yeah, that makes total sense. I mean, fundamentally, the way I understand it is you own the ground, so your own was in the ground. And if somebody says, I want to get to what's in your ground, you know, then they have to invest it and take it out and pay you for the privilege so to speak, that actually reminded me of something I wanted to ask because it's such a real treat to have you. Are you familiar with a book three feet from gold? No, I don't think I am. But please. Yeah, it's it was written by a friend of mine, who also lives in the San Diego area by the name of Greg green. But he didn't write it because it has a lot to do with gold, he used it more as a metaphor, I would probably say the idea being somebody is basically staking a claim, and starting by himself a ton of towards where he thinks that the gold reign is going to be. And after about a year and a half or so he actually striker scored. And now he's really, really excited and spends pretty much all the money from their goal to buy equipment to dig further into the ground. And he does that for 18 more years without finding any further goal. And ultimately, he so basically broke that he is selling his claim. And the people who bought it looked at the story and said, When was that when he actually struck gold. And they went back to that part of this enormous tunnel that the guy had dug and said, Well, what's around it? And that's why I was reminded by because what's around it was he basically only needed to dig horizontally instead of further into the mountain and just follow the vein basically, right. And he didn't realize that he had been a vertically duck through it and then kept going, instead of really kind of looking around. And I guess you know where those rains go. And so, you know. Yeah, no, look, there's a scene in the mining business, the best place to find a mine is in the shadow of an existing one. Geological tant Trends tend to occur over large linear distances, deposits tend to recur within those same geological districts. And so we are predominantly in the best money jurisdictions in the world. 75% of our portfolio of royalties by number and by value are in Nevada, Ontario and Quebec, which are judged the three best jurisdictions in the world perennially by the Fraser Institute and economic think tank here in Canada, based on geological potential, low political risk and low regulatory risks. And in these increasingly fraught times, it's great to be in these jurisdictions, because they have the rule of law, we have the ability to put liens on the property with a royalty. So again, we survive bankruptcy survive changes in ownership, that rule of law, that framework is so fundamentally important to ensure the value of our royalties endure over the long run. And so we're very happy to be in those jurisdictions and focused on them, not only for the geological potential, but but also because of the framework legal framework around our royalties. Yeah, that totally makes sense. And I mean, those areas, if I'm not totally mistaken, have been, in a sense successful for mining for many, many months, probably several 100 years by now. You know, I think that proves your point that, you know, if there was something that was probably more of it. Now, if we go back a little bit to the investing side, I've always preached that our 10% of investments to be in gold, but I have to tell you, especially since you are an expert, I don't I should put it the other way around. Sometimes I'm not so sure if either economics changed, or fundamentals changed, or I've just been fed a story that isn't quite true, because for an what I would say probably three decades, I've always and that doesn't mean that I had to go in for three decades. There was an intention period that was very long before I got the first point. But it was always well when the times are tricky when we have recessions when inflation is high and stuff like that gold prices typically go up significantly. And even though Admittedly they have gone up a little bit but if I You know, think about, you know, some of the people who are really been preachers of gold and gold investing, and the numbers like three 510 1000 an ounce and stuff like that. I'm really curious, your opinion, why hasn't all the stuff that's been going on with cost of money and you've name it as pretty much everything perfectly aligned from my little guys perspective to make it the perfect scenario for God and we just spring loading the thing, or what's your opinion? I do think it is spring loading. But I'd also say that over the last year, where we've had a relentless bear market in the equity capital markets, gold has behaved like a champ. It's retained value in the face of a very, very difficult market for all of our other investments. And so it's acted as the insurance it should have. But I do think it's poised springloaded, as you say, for significant outperformance. I see many similarities between this inflationary cycle. And what we saw in the 1970s. When gold achieved its real all time high. And I'll talk about that in a minute. But you know, we had the decoupling of the US dollar from the gold standard in the early 1970s. Under Richard Nixon's administration, that was the financial war, effectively the Vietnam War, he needed to print money. I think that's an important little side effect when the French and the British and everybody said, let's, let's get this stuff that we supposedly have with you. I still don't know if they really had it in Fort Knox or not. But Okay, keep going. But to again, draw that back to today, we came out of the great financial crisis and effectively decoupled fiat currency from reality, there was a coordinated coordinated effort to print money, it was an abandonment of any serve physical backing for gold whatsoever. And it was printing galore for over a decade with exceedingly low nominal interest rates, and deep into negative territory on real interest rates. And we saw the gold price perform admirably coming out of that great financial crisis, as a barometer of excessive money supply and low interest rates. We also saw back in the 1970s, oil embargo imposed upon us by the Arab world today, we have a self imposed oil embargo, we're not buying Russian energy anymore. And that's driven up energy prices, we stopped supply chain disruptions in the 70s as well, I remember looking up to the gas station with my father, I remember empty grocery shelves, we're seeing a similar phenomenon in supply chain disruptions today. I think the one notable difference, which I think is even more bullish for gold in this inflationary cycle than last was the debt to GDP levels globally was only 100%. And so when Paul Volcker came into the Federal Reserve, he had the latitude to raise interest rates dramatically. And he did, he brought interest rates to 20%. When headline inflation was 14 15%, eventually brought inflation to the ground. That's not going to happen. Now. Because debt to GDP today is global is 350%. It's three and a half times what it was on a per capita basis back then, there's very limited latitude for central banks to really raise interest rates and deal with inflation in any sort of fashion. They appetite isn't there, we still have a nominal rates below the headline, inflation number and the Fed. And the Bank of Canada recently just announced they're done. They're done raising interest rates, the Feds signaling, they're done into raising interest rates. So they're not serious about teaming inflation. Because the only way to deal with these debt levels is to inflate it away, there is no fiscally responsible way for these governments to repay their debt. So they're going to just make the debt a smaller component of the GDP by inflating GDP. So inflation is entrenched, it's here to stay. And gold in the last inflation cycle went up to over $100 an ounce. And that was in 19 $81. You inflation adjusted to today, that's $3,000 an ounce. I think that's the base case for gold. I think the excesses we've introduced in the system, since the GFC, 12 years ago, are far and above what we saw in the 1970s. And there is going to be a financial reckoning, a reset, if you will, of fiat currencies. And just keep in mind that every fiat currency that's ever been created, has failed at some point, because it capitation by governments is too great for them to undermine the value of their currency to deal with the exegeses or the their current needs of the economy. Yeah, I totally agree with that. I mean, I think it's actually even more disturbing, at least to me when you say the 300% debt to GDP on a global scale true and concerning for sure. But what I find concerning is that we are now in a position at least, for example, in the United States, where it's almost 130%. And the acceleration is so tremendous. I think we've gotten to the point where the words that we're using, right me throwing around the word trillion, as if it is the most normal thing in the world, even though any person that I know, I've tried to ask a whole bunch of people, very intelligent, educated people, but most really, really struggled to put any kind of frame around what is a trillion dollars, and we have now 31 of those justice debt on the national debt in the United States. And this is another one of those where I'm saying, you know, I've always thought you know, yeah, You can carry some debt in the Canadians have always said, Well, you know, there is maybe a way that you can keep increasing debt without really having to pay the piper, so to speak. Not convinced that that is really the case. So I think it's a very good point, as you're saying, I mean, we see it first science, right, like the Saudis are saying, we are now accepting Uber and UN and pretty much anything else, even our own currency we are, the reaction to power military power doesn't seem to be the same. And I think for our audience, I think it's very important. If you're not very much in international things, and international economics, I like to point out and ask you, David, for your opinion, and what you think the consequences are. When we look at what you mentioned about the war with Ukraine, the reaction of basically the European Union and the United States was to say, we're gonna punish you, Russia, by taking you away out of the Swiss system, which is basically how you internationally move money around, we are basically freezing your assets that you have anywhere outside of your country, and we are not paying you in anything that has value, and now then escalated to not even wanting to buy anything, even though kind of like oil and gas and stuff, especially Germany, would need it and would get it way cheaper. I'm saying that is something that was decided by the United States and the EU, I don't want to even speculate who was the driver, the biggest driver or whatever. But we have 200 countries in the world. And when we take the EU and some other states, and countries and United States together, get maybe 230, I'm believing the other 170 are sitting there in their beautiful palace in whichever capital of the country and say, what would we have to do to be treated the same way, right. And then you see stuff like Argentina and Brazil weren't really ever the biggest trends to consider if they should have a common currency and a common market suddenly, right? Or if they could pay stuff in pesos, or whatever the new thing might be. So I'm kind of wondering when you said, you know, no currency has ever survived, you know, for very long periods of time, maybe a couple of 100 years or so, where are we going? Are we going into a complete fragmentation and go ahead with the ultimately back to being the center that people pay each other with? Well, I think that's happened increasingly in a number of developing countries where the fiat currencies have failed. And they've gone back to effectively a gold standard, at least 100 assets. I mean, the beautiful thing about hard assets, they're finite quantity. And gold in particular has been recognized as a currency for 4000 years, and papers infinite. And we've seen that increasingly across the world. When the US dollar loses its dominance and I in there are active, growing economies like China, they're trying to undermine the reserve status of the US dollar, there is going to be a reckoning, and it's going to result in dramatic inflation. And it's insidious, it eats into capital eats it, or savings. And gold ultimately, is the one standard that we can look at. And it's fungible, recognized as a global currency around the world recognized for its intrinsic value around the world. That's certainly not the case with cryptocurrencies, and certainly not the case with virtually every other fiat currency other than the US dollar currently. Yeah. Okay, cool. Now, you mentioned it, I was tempted and kept away from it when you brought it up. So what about this idea that I recently heard on Swan Chanel to say, Would it be feasible to have a gold backed Bitcoin? There are gold backed digital currencies, they haven't taken off yet, but they exist. And we hope to actually tried to create one in the early stages when I was when gold Corp in partnership with the Royal Canadian Mint in Ottawa, and with what other party and there is an act of movement to create gold back digital currency. Look, the blockchain is here to stay, I think actually has value to the economy in terms of removing transactional friction, removing the middleman bringing down costs generally, of transacting in our modern economy, and we need digital currencies to do that. The question is, what digital currency should we use are a series of digital currencies, I believe that we should have it physically backed digital currencies, otherwise, it's just zeros and ones. And we've seen what happens when there is no control around that when there isn't that kind of anchor value. We saw 8000 cryptocurrencies created at the peak of the cryptocurrency market craze, and they were created out of thin air, there was nothing to physically back them, there was no finite quantity of them as there is for example, with Bitcoin, so there's room for digital currencies, but having some physical backing behind them, I think, will provide the fungibility and the security that investors are looking for when they're looking to participate in that market. Yeah, absolutely. I'm kind of with you, i The only slight difference would be I agree with you on the need. The one thing I would say is the independence the limit on the number of tokens or coins if you want to go that way, and in a way I really, you know, proof of work is so for me kinda like it might sound weird, the gold standard so to speak, if it is not Bitcoin and I think it would have to be a crypto that is structured similarly that has a limited volume of coins that has independence from government influence that basically has all these attributes that Bitcoin has, which kind of begs the question why why invent something new when it's already there? And for our audience, why does David and why do I say blockchain is going to stay whatever the new constellation is? i It is not a good analogy. I admit that. But it's a little bit to say, Okay, we used to have cash. Now we use ATMs, you know, to get money or we use bank cards to pay. That's for me a little bit like what blockchain is, it's not really directly related to whatever you pay, if you're in Italy, if you pay with euros, you go to Argentina, you pay with pesos. But you do this all with the same card. And if you want any cash, you use that same card to get it out of the ATM. That's kind of the technology in my understanding the currency and how it functions and what its value is and stuff like that is pretty much removed. It's just you, how do you do the accounting? And I have to say this whole thing about patching and blockchain is pretty cool, not just for currency, but for pretty much a lot of other supply chain things that can be done with it now, since you have the gold royalty. And I'm kind of curious if somebody were to say, okay, so I understand the royalty thing I understand. They don't have to dig the mines. They don't have to invest on the property, but they buy property where there is a high likelihood of desirable assets in the ground. If somebody wants to get a part of that. Once you get into that, how do they go about it? Are there limits? Can you tell us a little bit about how does somebody become an investor if that's possible? Well, we're listed on the NYSC, American under the trading symbol GROY, so it's very easy to invest in the company, you can learn more about a single So very easy to enter in and out of the stock, we're one of the most liquid stocks, and measured by how many days it takes for us to turn our market cap. We're as liquid on that relative basis as the largest large cap players in the royalty space, including Franco Nevada, Wheaton precious metals, World Gold. So we have that liquidity. And we're the largest small cap royalty player in the sector. Now as a result of significant consolidation we've seen in the industry, we grew largely through m&a In our first year, we actually absorbed three of our competitors, Ely gold, Golden Valley and abitibi royalties. And we saw four of our other peer companies disappear through m&a with some of our other competitors as well. So we're seeing a shrinking number of players in the space. And I think that'll Garner stronger premiums, given the scarcity that's starting to emerge among the royalty players. And given the absence of a mature company, what we're trying to endeavor to do is create a mature company where one doesn't exist right now, there isn't a middle company that is big enough to matter to institutional investors, but still small enough to grow. Because those larger cap players that I mentioned earlier on are blue chip, high quality companies, but they're so big, it's almost impossible for them to provide any growth in their earnings on a per share basis. Whereas given our relatively small size, and how quickly we've been able to grow, and our growth trajectory going forward, we're in an exceptional position to track that growth multiple, that the larger cap players are going to struggle to find. Okay, and that basically means when somebody buys the stock in your company, they're buying, in a sense, the whole portfolio, right? That's exactly right. You know, we are a collection of annuities. If you think about it, Yeah exactly. That's why I asked the question, you might say, what does he mean, but I thought, it also be an opportunity to basically be part owner or co owner of any of the properties themselves. Well, that's exactly it. So you get very direct exposure. And given that we are effectively a manager of contracts, as opposed to manage your minds, I have a very small GNA footprint, I have eight full time employees. And I could run a business with 10 times the number of royalties with the same employee. So it's eminently scalable. So our GNA costs are extremely low. We run our company, on a virtual office, we don't even pay rent. I have employees that largely work from small offices, shared office space, their homes, they work internationally, because I want them spread around internationally look for opportunities. And so our GNA costs are extremely low. So every incremental dollar of revenue growth that we're delivering, and I talked about earlier on goes right to the bottom line. That's why we were able to introduce a dividend so quickly. And while I feel confident that as we crystallize that revenue growth from that vast, diversified portfolio, we're likely to increase that dividend over time as well. Yeah, that's very cool. Let me ask you a little bit in your thoughts, your outlook, because you said in the Americas, I mean, it's not only Canada and North America or the United States. Where do you see I kinda like to see opportunities in countries, I'm suspecting that might not have quite the legal standards that North America has. But do you see opportunities in other places like the Middle and South America? We do. But we began tend to focus on investment, great countries, namely Brazil and Colombia, that still have a rule of law and judiciary and a framework around which we can ensure that our royalties will be respected, and have, you know, mature banking systems. So we're quite selective in terms of what countries go into, when we're looking at new opportunities, Geology is the primary criteria that we look at, we want to make sure that we find the geological model and the exploration prospectivity of what we're investing in. And we then look at the quality the management team, do they have a track record of operating that district in that country? Have they been successful before, so invested in management as well. And then we look at the country ultimately. And so we are in a position where we could take on a bit more political risk, given how concentrated we are in those three excellent jurisdictions, Nevada, Quebec, and Ontario. But it will be driven by the quality of the geology and the management team and ensuring that there's at least a reasonable legal framework under which we can enforce our royalty rights. Yeah, absolutely. That totally makes sense. And I think that's also what the shareholders want to hear, right? Like, especially if you dilute the portfolio, so to speak with more risky investments, then, you know, that might not actually perform as well. Now, one more thing, and then we come to the last two questions, I asked everybody, I'm kind of curious when I'm looking, because I get obviously from my source where I basically buy the gold coins, updates and trader does an excellent job on a monthly basis to give a little bit of like an overall international view of what's going on. And when I'm reading this, for the last, I'd say, eight 910 months, it looks to me on a national scale, that there's almost a little bit like hoarding starting to happen when I look at how much God I mean, for the audience, just to understand, and you correct me if I'm telling it to you here, but if I understand that, right, a lot of the rock or that comes out of the minds goes to Switzerland for refining into basically, well, not only the 99.9% purity, but also if it comes out of one of those refineries, then it's also stamped and accepted as truly what it claims to be. Let's put it that way. So when I'm looking at the reports that come out of that, through the information that my Trader provides, it looks like you know, Asia and recently Turkey and some other places, they bring in so much gold, like in tongues, not just a couple of 1000 answers, but in tongues over the last year or so where it looks to me as the little guy like at certain places signing toward God because they have a suspicion or they think about something. What's your take on that? Absolutely Central Bank buying in particular in the developing world has been a big driver of gold price performance in the last year. General investors have not played Gold yet. They're still convinced that the equity markets are going to rally that the Federal Reserve is going to deliver a grand pivot came inflation while lowering interest rates. I think that's a fool's errand. Frankly, central banks are recording gold. And it's the China's the turkeys of the rushes, who deal with an avalanche of foreign currency proceeds or as quickly as they can diversify into hard assets, particularly gold. China is the number one producer of gold as a country, they have more mined production in any other country in the world. None of it leaves their shores. And in fact, on top of that, they're the biggest importer of gold even bigger than India, which has traditional culture, cultural needs for gold wedding seasons and the like. So it's it's eclipsed India as an importer. So it's it's not only consuming everything to produce, but consuming as much as it can import. where's that going? It's going largely in central bank vaults. The their Chinese central bank is diversifying as quickly as they can. They're still underweight gold relative to the US, if they truly want to be a reserve currency, they'll want to have at least as much gold as the US and US. The United States has the biggest gold reserves as a country in the world at the central bank level, the Federal Reserve, China's not anywhere near their Russia's looking to do it. Brazil has been doing it Venezuela has held on to its goal as as much as it can. So these developing countries recognize that if they want legitimacy, they want to own the one universal gold currency, I should say, which is the gold. Yeah, I agree with you on China, I have to say, I think we should all be every once in a while giving a thanks in their direction, because instead of just, you know, releasing $100 billion of debt that they had in the last 12 months, they could have also said well, let's just do 300 or 400 or 500 billion right and that would have really hurt the global economy. So even though everybody is pounding on them all the time, so Certain things when you look at that, I mean, it's obvious that they want to get rid of that perceived risk, and maybe to some extent, also the fragile relationship if you want to put it that way. But like you said, I agree totally, if they want to ever get into that position, they can hold a trillion dollars in US debt. Right? That just really doesn't make sense. And it seems to me that they're slowly but aggressively exchanging it, you know, at least in some way in gold, but other things as well. I was lying. I have to admit to you, David, I lied. There's one more other question that I wrote down. And I got to ask, and that is, am I crazy? Or does the NGO that the ETS claim that they have really exist? No, I do believe they exist. I think that the GLD on NYC their gold is held at the Bank of New York, I think, I do believe I was on the World Gold Council when I was writing gold Corp. There are quarterly audits and inventory checks of that gold, I do believe that physical backing exists. The question you have to ask yourself as an investor is, is buying physical gold, necessarily the best way to optimize your leverage to increase in gold prices. And like you I own physical gold as a portion of my portfolio, but I also look for leverage the gold price through companies like gold royalty Corp that provide exploration upside, which physical gold holding does not provide. That's the right. I agree with that. And I would actually say, besides my coins, I would rather buy your shares, because I'm not so convinced as you if for some reason that you say your number were to happen rather soon to 3000 and beyond. I wonder, especially in a recessionary environment, how many people would say, Well, let me get rid of my ETF and I take half in physical and the rest in money. I don't know, I'm just not sure that they really could deliver, right? I mean, but I hope you're right, and I'm wrong, you know.. One thing you can't do is go to the GLD and say I want my physical gold back, you can't do that you can sell on the New York Stock Exchange and get cash. But you're right, it's not an exchangeable certificate into physical gold, that can be readily achieved that that's not going to happen. But you know, there are many ways don't physical gold, if you don't want to own GLD. And you don't have the confidence that that physical gold is there to back it, then you know, yeah, line up at a bank with your driver's license and get a safety deposit box or put it on your mattress. And some people do that. And I preach, I have some gold on my wall. That back there, there's there's a little wafer of gold. There. This is on my wall, it reminds me of my days at Agnico Eagle that was given to me as I left and retired from there to join them on eBay. So I love owning physical gold, love being able to touch it. And that's the advantage I have over the GLD of having a physical gold in my home state. So.. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm with you. I mean, it has just it has something and when you look, I mean, I have it in coins, and I look at the coins. It's just it's not like any other coin or any other kind of collectible. It's just its own specialty. And yes, but I mean, it's anybody can do what they want. I'm just not so sure. I mean, you're right that you can only get your cash, but the cash is related to the goal in mind. And so, you know, so it's not that, you know, if they really, to me, it's a little bit questionable, because the if you add up in Iman, like, if you add up what they claim they have, it's it's a number that is mind boggling, right? I really kind of the first question will be whether you have it, if you have that much of it. But anyway, I mean, that was just one last question I wanted to ask. So the two that I always asked at the end of the conversation that we have is if you could meet anybody past or present, who would it be and why? Well, like I would say, Ray Dalio and he just wrote a book recently I thoroughly enjoyed and is a big proponent of physical gold and owning gold and the Currency Reset that's inevitable in the market. I think he's very learned as an incredible track record as an investor. I think spending time with him over lunch or dinner would be, you know, immeasurably valuable to me, given his experience and success in the market. So I would say him for sure. Yeah, absolutely and if you can get a plus one, and I raised my head. Mind. No, I'm not pretty enough in everything. So no, I get that. But yeah, so for the audience, the book that David is referring to is called the New World Order. And I recommend it highly together with like the fourth turning and a few other books in the context of in that, by the way, David, do you think Ray is writing what he's writing more on economic experience? Or is there a certain bias because of his actual experience of being in China? Well, I think it's a perfect combination of the two and he has a unique perspective and that he can, he can be practical and not just theoretical, and that's the value of having a dinner or lunch with a guy like that. Yes, there's a lot of economic theory that underlies is theses on investing and gold in particular, but also he has a lot of practical experience. It's incredible after a long distinguished career. Yeah, absolutely and again, I mean, even to the point that I think one of his sons actually went to school and China and stuff, but yeah, I think what a lot of as a German person, I think I'm allowed to say this, if you have lived significant amounts of times in different countries, not just visit but literally lived. The appreciation of the differences in culture and how that can actually translate in strategy and political actions and stuff like that is very, very valuable. And that's why I also love Ray and his writing so much, because I think that always shines through. It's not just because the number says or because the economic rules say so. But the cultural underlying aspects, I think he always emphasized this a lot as well. Okay, so we agree. And if you can find anybody else, please take me along, if that happens. So the last question is, if you had a time machine, and you can change the space time continuum, but you can go forward, backward, wherever you want, where would you go? And why. Look, I would go back to Germany in the way my Republic because there's some very tangible lessons that came out of that, that are applicable today. And that was a grand Currency Reset, unfortunately, with severe social and global implications. And there's a lot to learn, and I'm afraid that lessons being lost and not having that perspective, I think is caused us to do the same thing over and over again. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, maybe and that is not a question you normally touch on. But because I've been quite interested in Bitcoin enjoy to read a little bit into the Austrian economic theory versus the Keynesian that we have right now. Do you think that Keynes is a little bit the culprit for what we're facing these days? Yeah, we're there, you know, government intervention at various points in the cycle is needed. Yeah, I think it's been abused and distorted. And frankly, I have a government here in Canada, that's intervening. And we've seen in the US with this inflation Prevention Act, or whatever it's called, in fact, is actually making the problem worse by amplifying the spending, government should be pulling back in inflationary environment. That's not what's happening there. They're saying they're trying to protect us from inflation by spending more, that's asinine, that's counter intuitive. We actually call it the inflation induction act. No. No, actually, I agree with you. I mean, the thing that is fascinating to me, and that's why earlier in our conversation said, I sometimes wonder if somebody taught me the wrong rules, or the wrong stuff, because we actually and especially as somebody from Germany, Weimar and the whole 1929 stuff, that was, I think, the absolute maximum excess of money printing, right? And to say, okay, they tried it, and it miserably feared basically ruin the whole world economic system. Let's try it again. You know, kind of that's how I feel a little bit when so I'm with you, the history normally tells us and teaches us important lessons in the field sometimes that we just refuse to learn them. Exactly. And we're seeing microcosms of it around the world in Zimbabwe and Turkey, for example, who are basically ignoring economic fundamentals and over stimulating their economy printing money and resulting in hyperinflation and both of those economies, we're seeing little explosions, and it's going to result in a big reset, in my view of via currencies. on the global stage. Yeah. And that's why when you said, you know, the New World, The New World Order from Ray, I always like to add first turning, because it would make perfect sense to say, Okay, well, it's not just that there was a movie, but winter has come. And we maybe have to go through this just because the cycles happen and to get to spring, you have to go through winter. Yes, exactly. Okay. Well, David, you said already how people can find your stock. But if somebody says, Wow, that was such an awesome thing, maybe I want to get directly in touch with David, how do they do that? So yeah, I would go to the website, global We have a newsletter you can sign up for we have 1-800 Number, we have an investor relations, email address as well on there. I think it's info local The website again, it's gold So it's easy to remember. And quite often I return investor calls. So when we get those when a leader and recalls are those emails, I'm delighted to participate in responses to them, and we'd love to hear from you. So please reach out and ask any questions you want on our story. And, you know, we do quite often we do non deal roadshows electronic ones video ones, we press release those if you'd like to participate, please sign up. We'd love to be able to tell you the story. usually have a slide deck up and go through our portfolio in a bit more granularity so you can learn a bit more about our business. And you know, I'm there We're excited to tell the story. I think it's a very compelling one in a rising gold price environment. Yeah, absolutely. And I really feel very honored that somebody with that kind of illustrious background was actually willing to come on the show. And it was a wonderful conversation. So I hope maybe when we reach the 1000 we do it again, David. Okay. That'd be fine. All right. Thank you. Okay. Thanks for listening. And I hope you enjoyed today's episode of The IDEAL Investor Show more info and the links we mentioned during the show in the show notes or you can go to our website at idea where to and sign up for the Apple podcast link. And if you'd like to talk to me sign up for a strategy call. Hopefully you want to share what you learned with your network and bring more people in we are really eager to hear your comments and until next time, be well stay safe and ciao.